Dozens arrested in Germany under suspicion of a plot to overthrow the government (2024)

German authorities say they expect more arrests as they investigate an alleged plot to overthrow the government that led to dozens of arrests Wednesday across the country.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST:

German authorities say they expect to make more arrests as they investigate an alleged plot to overthrow the government there. Thousands of police officers carried out raids throughout Germany yesterday. They arrested more than two dozen people suspected of planning to break into the seat of Germany's government, attack political leaders and seize control of the country. Among those arrested, an aristocrat, a soldier and a former member of parliament. We're joined now by Constanze Stelzenmuller. She is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and an expert on German foreign and security policy. Constanza, thanks for being here.

CONSTANZE STELZENMULLER: Thank you very much for having me on. Good morning.

MARTIN: Good morning. On its face, this plot sounds horrific. I mean, these people were plotting to break into government buildings, kill political leaders. Having this plan at all is obviously criminal. But based on what you're learning, how realistic was it?

STELZENMULLER: Well, it seems as though the police had been watching this group for a very, very long time and had been carefully monitoring their every move. They were just - if you look at the plan that they executed there yesterday, they searched 130 premises with 3,000 officers and arrested 25 individuals. I think, at this point, we're at 30. And they are planning to arrest more and even made arrests in Austria and Italy. That suggests they've been watching this for a very long time and were watching to crack down. The other thing that is really notable, they had informed a lot of press. So TV and print journalists were ready with cameras and with stories.

MARTIN: But again, was this something - I mean, where was it on the risk threshold? I mean, could the German government have been violently overtaken?

STELZENMULLER: No, that I don't think. And thanks for repeating the question because I hadn't answered it. I think that the conspiracists were led by the notion that if they stormed the federal legislature, the Bundestag, in sort of a repeat of January 6, the storming of the Capitol, that they could then overthrow the government. I think that is wildly underestimating both the stability of Germany's institutions and, I think, the mood in the German public. And the two leadership figures that they had identified - a older gentleman from a minor princely family in East Germany and a retired judge who had been a former parliamentarian of the hard-right party, AfD - if you look at their biographies, I think nothing suggests that they would be effective leaders.

What is really concerning about this plot, though, is that it involves, apparently, retired and active members of Germany's security services, including at least one active member of an elite forces unit where the previous defense minister, Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer, had already cracked down and dissolved a whole company because of right-wing infiltration. This suggests that that process has been ongoing.

MARTIN: Well, and that they are actively recruiting from inside the police force now.

STELZENMULLER: Yes.

MARTIN: This would suggest something that is far more systemic in terms of risk.

STELZENMULLER: Well, look; I think we've all seen in all Western societies a great deal of insecurity and concern and a yearning for order and security as a cause of the pandemic, of international disruptions beginning, really, with the global financial crisis 10 years ago, and now with an attack by Russia on Ukraine that has global implications in terms of inflation and energy prices. That, I think, you know, creates a climate in which people become susceptible and vulnerable.

But I would caution against assuming that the entirety of the German security services are infiltrated. And we have known for quite a long time that the hard right in Germany was trying to tunnel into the services. I'm pretty sure that the German security services have an eye on this. But we did have a former head of domestic intelligence, until a couple of years ago, who turned out to be quite right wing himself and who had to leave. And the hard crackdown dates back to a year or two, really.

MARTIN: So, I mean, Germany obviously has a long history with extremist groups. It has dealt with them for a long time. The reporting out of this plot suggests - says that Qanon is a group that has been influential in this plot, also a group called Reichsburger.

STELZENMULLER: Yes.

MARTIN: Can you explain what that group is about and what this plot reveals about how the far-right movement in Germany has evolved?

STELZENMULLER: Sure. So QAnon, as you know, started off in the United States but has many adherents in other societies, including in Western Europe. And that's certainly the case in Germany. And the Reichsburger have, I think, equivalent - although, they don't come from the U.S., they have equivalence, you know, with the folks who sort of barricade themselves on ranches and don't accept the power of the federal government. That's what these people are. They don't accept the sovereignty of the Federal Republic of Germany. And they want to reinstate a pre-democratic government. That's what the prince was intended for, it appears.

They - many of their ideas seem ludicrous. And they indulge in, you know, global conspiracy theories laced with antisemitic tropes. They believe in Satanism and pedophilia rings. All that sounds familiar, probably, to your listeners. But I think what's important to understand is that external powers, namely Russia, have been using this kind of messaging themselves. Vladimir Putin himself only a few weeks ago gave a speech in which he ranted at length about Satanism. And so there is also an external connection here that we might be seeing appear more clearly in the coming weeks and days.

MARTIN: And, of course, there's the rise institutionally of the AfD, the far-right party, which gives them a more mainstream voice.

STELZENMULLER: Absolutely.

MARTIN: You - just in closing, you referenced January 6 earlier in our conversation. I mean, we still are living through the effects of the attempt to overturn a democratic election. What are going to be the long-term effects of this in Germany for the German psyche and democratic institutions? Just a few seconds.

STELZENMULLER: Honestly, I'm looking at the reactions now. They're relatively calm. I think, if these conspirators wanted to undermine German governments and make people insecure, I think they showed the opposite. And I think, maybe, also German police intended this as a pretty massive show of force. I think that's, on the whole, relatively reassuring. But we will absolutely have to dig deeper in this.

MARTIN: Constanze Stelzenmuller is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. We appreciate your time and perspective this morning. Thank you.

STELZENMULLER: You're very welcome. Thank you for having me on. Have a good day.

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Dozens arrested in Germany under suspicion of a plot to overthrow the government (2024)

FAQs

What does plotting to overthrow the Government mean? ›

'Overthrow of the Government' is defined as the act of instigating others to overthrow the state power and the socialist system through spreading rumors, libel, or other means, which is considered a serious offense against national security and is punishable by Chinese law.

What is the alleged coup plot in Germany? ›

Ideology and aims

The alleged aim of the group was to reestablish the German Empire. The network is alleged to have been planning an armed attack on the Bundestag since at least November 2021, as well as public arrests of politicians to cause public unrest.

Do we have the right to overthrow the government? ›

--That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on ...

What is the crime called when you try to overthrow the government? ›

Treason: A crime of betraying one's country, typically through efforts to overthrow the government. Rioting: Participating in a violent public disturbance. Insurrection: Violent uprising against one's government.

What did Germany take the blame for? ›

The treaty's so-called “war guilt” clause forced Germany and other Central Powers to take all the blame for World War I. This meant a loss of territories, reduction in military forces, and reparation payments to Allied powers.

What is the law on fighting corruption in Germany? ›

The German anti-bribery laws provide for criminal liability of both the giving and the receiving party of a bribe. Other criminal offences that are regularly associated with corruption, such as embezzlement and tax evasion, are also regularly prosecuted in parallel.

What does Germany do after declaring war on France? ›

After declaring war on France, Germany was now determined to execute its war plan to defeat France first and then concentrate its forces against Russia. The plan required German troops invade Belgium to get to France.

What does overthrowing government mean? ›

When a government or leader is overthrown, they are removed from power by force. That government was overthrown in a military coup three years ago.

What is it called when you plan to overthrow the government? ›

A coup d'état, often abbreviated to coup, is the overthrow of a lawful government through illegal means. If force or violence are not involved, such an event is sometimes called a soft or bloodless coup.

What happens if you try to overthrow the government? ›

§2385. Advocating overthrow of Government. Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

What is it called when citizens try to overthrow the government? ›

A coup is an attempt to illegally overthrow a country's government. Scholars generally consider a coup successful when the usurpers are able to maintain control of the government for at least seven days. Learn more.

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